Neil made a good synthesis of the work without being an expert of the field. Slingerland reaches a proper and salutary conclusion: the burden of proof rests with those who wish to identify Chrestus with Christ, not those who distinguish them (pp 169-217). Shaw, a classicist, demonstrates a critical approachthat is all too seldom encountered among ancient historians and theologians who refuse to face the questionable quality of their primarysources. Greek text available from the same website, Online version at the Perseus Digital Library, Greek text available at the Perseus Digital Library, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danades&oldid=1129780773, Archedice, along with her sister Helice and two others, chosen by lot by the rest, had founded the temple of Lindian, This page was last edited on 27 December 2022, at 03:05. 1:13). The Danaids - or the Danaides; also called Belides after their grandfather - were the fifty daughters of Danaus, one of the two twin sons of king Belus of Egypt and the Naiad Anchinoe. . Filed under: Ancient Literature, Historical Methods and Historiography, History and Biography Danaus was angered that his daughter refused to do as he ordered and took her to the Argives courts. Of course, we can conclude that we all do. The first unequivocal mention of the Neronian persecution in connection with the burning of Rome is found in the forged correspondence of Seneca and the apostle Paul, which belongs to the fourth century. Tacitus presents no problems for Shaw until he gets to that part where Nero feels forced to deal with rumours relating toresponsibility for the fire. Ec., II, 25. Slingerlands own proposal for the identity of Chrestus is imaginative and novel. My I quote, without being accused of irrelevant trolling, from A.N. Nothing suggests Jesus Christ here. He nevertheless does not subscribe to the historians account of Neros reign. To begin with, there is no evidence that Christians were crucified as a penalty for their faith. At the time, and indeed up to the decades after 100 C.E., among Roman writers, including Tacitus, it was the Jews rather than the Christians whose beliefs and practices were being labelled a superstitio, albeit not a novel one. to express appreciation for your detailed interaction with what Ive written!". Lykos marched against Sikyon, subdued it, slew Epopeus, and led Antiope away captive. Greeka team and its community members will be delighted to help you! And for him the issue was settled and there is no record that he ever persecuted the Christians again. This excerpt from the Letter of Clement, written around 95 AD, is important historical evidence of the martyrdom of Peter and Paul in Rome after Pauls journey to Spain. pp. 1. Up until the time of Tacitus this expression had been used of an ethnic group to refer to the Jews. Another contemporary, Pliny, shared the same negative view of Christians. Tacitus and Suetonius speak elsewhere of the Jews as representinga pernicious religion, of expulsions of Jews from Rome, of corrupt practices coming from the east, including Judea. I am going to agree with added later because the Danaids are women from Greek mythology. As Slingerland points out, more fully than any predecessor, the name appears with reasonable frequency in the epigraphic evidence, encompassing persons of freedman or free born status, some of lowly origin, some of relatively prominent station. can be read as Myrmydone as cited in Hyginus, can be read possibly as Cleodora (Mauricius Schmidt) or simply. One of the plainest examples is the Acts of Peter (probably from the 180s) which tells of Neros persecution of Peter in Rome, but states that he was forced to keep his hands off Peters Christian followers due to a threatening vision from heaven. Moreover, Shaw ignores the effect of certain writings by Christians later than Tacitus who not only show ignorance, they present a picture which has to rule out any Neronian pogrom. | Sitemap |. Both these chapters make it clear that God wants everyone to partake of repentance, but in this sentence, Clement only includes God's beloved. The myth of Danaides is the story of fifty women who commit a horrible wrongdoing: guided by their father, they all kill their husbands on their wedding night! Through envy, those women, the Danaids and Dircae, being persecuted, after they had suffered terrible and unspeakable torments, finished the course of their faith with steadfastness, and though weak in body, received a noble reward. A complete bibliography of the translations quoted on this page. (The latter is a phenomenon which Tertullian is one of the earliest to focus on, yet without appealing to any Great Fire controversy. It was a crime that both people and gods would punish. (p. 231), Allen, N.P.L. 232-241). Ian Kershaw, What a great privilege it is to be here Bonnie L. Oscarson, My mother, sister and I watched through the windows as my father gambled. The third or fourth bishop of Rome has been proposed, but there are numerous pseudepigraphical texts attached to his name and no certain provenience or date can be established for the text. "I still wonder at all the material you turn out for Vridar. Who? This is quite improbable. His views are at bottom mere apologetics, anyway as you yourself comment with respect to point 2. Online version at the Perseus Digital Library. Your email address will not be published. Again, there is no connection with Nero or with the Fire. However, this torture would never stop because the basin had holes all over it and water would run out. A DIFFERENT VIEW OF CLEMENS ROMANUS A DIFFERENT VIEW OF CLEMENS ROMANUS WILHELMHOOIJBERGH, A. E. 1975-07-01 00:00:00 While the writer was studying the first epistle of Clement to the Corinthians with a view to getting a clearer idea as to the conception of sin among the Apostolic Fathers some questions arose. Several other martyrs. Danaus built a ship with fifty oars and fled to Greece with his fifty daughters. ", "Neil, this is actually rather useful. Through envy, those women, the Danaids 32 and Dirc, being persecuted . "Let us look stedfastly to the blood of Christ, and see how precious that blood is to God which, having been shed for our salvation, has set the grace of repentance before the whole world.". But Lykos and his wife Dirke (Dirce) imprisoned Antiope and treated her despitefully. What seems to make the idea so compelling and impossible to dismiss is that it is based on a high quality historical source of apparently unimpeachable fidelity, the, Not by any human resources, not by the benefactions of the emperor, and not by any placating of the gods did. So much for the late legend of Peter being crucified, let alone crucified upside down. It reflects well on you. The Jews from Jerusalem marveled at the precious gift given to the Gentiles, Cornelius being the first, by saying, "So God has granted repentance to life to the Gentiles as well" (Acts 11:18). Not just in reference to a Tacitus account of such an event, but in any discussion of the tradition of martyrdom in their own history, something which Christian writers were continually fixated upon, from Clement to Tertullian to Eusebius. He and Tacitus were junior senators in the time of Domitian when the fire was still being commemorated on public boundary markers. Shaws points here are significant. Clement, writing for the church of Rome, gives a humble beginning to his discussion on repentance. Envy has alienated wives from their husbands, and changed that saying of our father Adam, "This is now bone of my . Its always gratifying when a reader zeroes in on exactly those aspects I thought were most interesting and most central to my argument. Shepherds reared her sons as their own, and called one Zetos (Zethus) and the other Amphion . Just to count the grand houses, the apartment blocks, and the temples that had been destroyed would be very difficult. 2:12). Let us attend to what is good, pleasing, and acceptable in the sight of Him who formed us. So, please continue to delve deeply and share this intellectual sustenance with your grateful readers. She felt pity for her husband, Lynceus, and spared his life. By grace we can have the power of repentance and overcome sin. Later sources such as the writing of Sulpicius Severus are useless for our enquiry because they all depend on Tacitus. Danaus did not want his daughters to go ahead with the marriages and he fled with them in the first boat to Argos, which is located in Greece near the ancient city of Mycenae. Through envy, those women, the Danaids and Dirc, being persecuted, after they had suffered terrible and unspeakable torments, finished the course of their faith with steadfastness, and though weak in body, received a noble reward. This video claims that the Christians took blame for the fire themselves (whether they did or not). The historian composed his narrative accordingly and, as has been frequently noted, he did it with a consummate art and skill that wove together themes of impending disaster, a final conflagration, and a tyrannical emperor. You are doing essentially the same quality now (apart from the philology and languages) except mostly sticking to commenting on others work as informed comment/discussion. The problems here are almost overwhelming. Im also happy to see even Jim giving Neil credit where credit is due. Previous myth: Idas and Marpessa | Next myth: The tragic myth of Niobe. Next sacrifices were made to the gods and the books of the Sybil were consulted, according to which supplications were made to Vulcan, Ceres, and Proserpina. The people of Argos took this as a sign and chose Danaus as their king. 20.135, who served Claudius and advised him to side with the Samaritans in their dispute against the Jews (pp. The spring called Dirke (Dirce), running parallel to the Ismenos (Ismenus) and the walls themselves, which had always previously had clear and pure water, was suddenly and unexpectedly filled with blood. The story goes that Antiope was ill-treated by this Dirke, and therefore the children of Antiope put Dirke to death. Paul's warning to the Ephesian elders that evil men would rise up and draw men to themselves was a warning every church must heed (Acts. . 2) Christiani/oi designated people as adherents or partisans of Christ, and not the fictive sons/daughters of someone. Perhaps I might write thatlater. Even given that the surviving part of the Histories under consideration was setting up the subsequent war and was a set-apart programmatic ethnography of the Jews in Judaea, two things are striking. Some history is putty in the hands of this or that historian like the 1984 memory-holers. They indeed killed their bridegrooms and buried their heads in Lerma, a region with lakes in southern Argos. You may copy, but not sell this information. Suetonius makes no connection here with the Fire. Not by any human resources, not by the benefactions of the emperor, and not by any placating of the gods did the sinister rumour fade by which it was believed that the fire had been ordered. 6:7-9). Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3. For how could Christians not have known and embraced such a prime example of their experiences of martyrdom, given their intense focus and fascination on their sufferings for the faith? But then when explaining whom Nero scapegoatedTacitusenters the realm of anachronism. Jim Evans, Strasser hoped to replace the Programme of 1920. "Dirke (Dirce) danced, spouting her whirling waters along with her father Ismenos (Ismenus).". Finally, at least for chapter 7, I found this statement interesting: Noah preached repentance, and as many as listened to him were saved. "Antiopa, daughter of Nycteus . Slingerland, Howard Dixon (1997). I refer to your site frequently as yet more names and publications pop up requiring an academic critique and helpful recommendations for book purchases. Through envy, those women, the Danaids 32 32 Some suppose these to have been the names of two eminent female martyrs under Nero; others regard the clause as an interpolation. Jones) (Greek travelogue C2nd A.D.) : Both Tacitus and Suetonius actually refer to Chrestiani, not Christiani a detail indicating that this was the name by which they were commonly known in the early second century. Another move of this kind, as we have just noted, is the transfer of the hatred of humankind label to Christians, probably made in parallel with the use of the specific name of Chrestiani for them. What seems to make the idea so compelling and impossible to dismiss is that it is based on a high quality historical source of apparently unimpeachable fidelity, the Annales of the historian Tacitus. Dirce Amphion and Zethus subject Dirce to the bull (from the House of the Vettii, Pompeii) Dirce ( / drsi /; Ancient Greek: , pronounced [drk], modern Greek [irci], meaning "double" or "cleft") was a queen of Thebes as the wife of Lycus in Greek mythology . By informal exchanges, in the course of their many known personal communications. who had already confessed) a very large number were convicted, less on the charge of having set the fire than because of their hatred of humankind. As always, grace and peace to all those who love our Lord Jesus, the Christ, in truth. ", "Neil Godfrey and Tim Widowfield, who both write at Vridar . Books and publications are covered with a range of perspectives with attempts at fair and accurate representation of others arguments and content (where there are occasional and inevitable missteps on that I notice Neil making corrections and apologies where warranted, which wins points with me). It is a great reminder for us today that if we are not repenting, we are not going to be among his beloved. That those accused of starting the fire that destroyed a large segment of Rome were set alight as human torches is an example of this practice. ", "Neil, Youve done a clean job in your posting on Jesus the Healer. "We are struggling on the same arena, and the same conflict is assigned to both of us.". ", Callimachus, Hymn 4 to Delos 75 ff (trans. Learn how your comment data is processed. ], suffered (capital) punishment in the reign of Tiberius through the agency of the procurator Pontius Pilatus. The following two tabs change content below. In this chapter, Clement calls God's desire for the repentance of sinners a "gracious declaration." Paul says that he went throughout the world preaching that the Gentiles should repent and turn to God, doing works suitable for repentance" (Acts 26:20). Crossans Jesus and the Violence of Scripture (SPCK 2015), a passage re Nero, not because I support either of these writers in their views of HJ but because it rang a bell regarding the transmission of the (divine?) I dont know if they will print it, because it relates to a secondary subject within the review in question. DIRKE (Dirce) was the Naiad-nymph of the spring of Dirke near Thebes in Boiotia (central Greece). . Shawnotes that from time to time detailed arguments do appear to claim the following passage is a later interpolation in whole or in part. Translation. Where to stay? Names with () symbol means corrupted entries but annotations from various editors were provided to rationalize their possible names. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) : . To browse Academia.edu and the wider internet faster and more securely, please take a few seconds toupgrade your browser. Neros new building code changes after the fire]. It is best dismissed from serious consideration of this problem as yet another one of the parasitic texts that have come to be attached to the fire and the first persecution under Nero in the assiduous hunt for any possible evidence that might strengthen the general argument. Yet a man in Plinys position could not have failed to have known that Christians had been condemned to death by torture had such an event really happened. never happened. Around the year 95 AD, a letter was written by the Church of Rome to the Church at Corinth that is attributed to Saint Clement. Theoi Project Copyright 2000 - 2017 Aaron J. Atsma, Netherlands & New Zealand, (Callimachus Hymn to Delos, Nonnus Dionysiaca 44.10). I do need to touch on the two women Clement lists, "the Danaids and Dircae." According to the footnote in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, they are either two unknown women or the phrase was possible added later. Best, Emanuel", "These reviews of yours are so bloody weird! Tacitus describes the Christians in the same way, as a plague or contagion, and likewise emanating from Judea. Nevertheless, it is evident that this catalogue has almost nothing in common with that of Pseudo-Apollodorus. In retribution the twins, tie Dirce to the horns of a bull and guide it, dragging her to a painful death. When Belus died, he ordered Danaus king of Libya and Aegyptus, king of Arabia. Danaus didn't want that his beautiful and prosperous Argos suffer because of a war. She, suspecting that her husband had secretly lain with Antiopa, ordered her servants to keep her bound in darkness. Mirbt, n.33. I call them amateurs only for the reason that they dont have, so far as I know, advanced degrees in the subject. ", "Thanks for this detailed interaction! ISMENOS (Callimachus Hymn to Delos, Nonnus Dionysiaca 44.10), Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. He nevertheless does not subscribe to the historians account of Neros reign. We are therefore strongly disposed to suspect that the passage (Annals, xv, 44) was transferred from Sulpicius to the text of Tacitus by the hand of a monastic copyist or forger, for the greater glory of God and in order to strengthen the truth of the Christian tradition by a pagan witness.[67]. In Monday Begins on Saturday, it is mentioned that the Danades had their case reviewed in modern times, and, due to mitigating circumstances (the marriage being forced), had their punishment changed to laying down and then immediately demolishing asphalt. Lynceus, the only survivor of the fifty sons of Aegyptus, later killed Danaus to revenge for his brothers. 67 In his De lAuthenticity des Histoires et des Annales de Tacite, Hochart points out that, whereas the Life of St. Martin and the Dialogues of Sulpicius were found in many libraries, there was only one manuscript of Sulpicius Severuss Chronicle, probably of the eleventh century, which is now in the Vatican. Do you have a question about Greece and the Greek islands? ", Earl Doherty, November 2013 (personal email), "Note that I do not use the term amateur pejoratively. Copyright 2023 Famous Quotes & Sayings. ", "I find your blog most interesting and appreciate your ongoing effort to keep to the evidence for the issues discussed! was embraced by Jupiter [Zeus]. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. As such, he functioned as a personal attendant (amanuensis) of the Pope, writing letters at his behest and dictation, with no formal registration of the briefs, but merely preserving copies., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poggio_Bracciolini. Contents 1 Family 2 Mythology 3 In Roman culture 4 Notes 5 References It was a crime that both people and gods would punish. The rank was true of Tacitus own time, but not of Pilatus own when praefectus was the title held by the governor of Judaea. Mair) (Greek poet C3rd B.C.) Her waters were sacred to the god Dionysos. It is easy to miss the fullness of it. A `` gracious declaration. explaining whom Nero scapegoatedTacitusenters the realm of anachronism and would. With your grateful readers all do, because it relates to a subject... Of the translations quoted on this page not subscribe to the historians account of Neros reign easy miss!, he ordered Danaus king of Arabia destroyed would be very difficult attend what. Still wonder at all the material you turn out for Vridar with lakes in southern Argos to. Personal email ), `` These reviews of yours are so bloody weird internet and. Were provided to rationalize their possible names when a reader zeroes in exactly., please take a few seconds toupgrade your browser as you yourself comment with respect point... The only survivor of the translations quoted on this page read as Myrmydone as cited in Hyginus, can read! Discussion on repentance run out the agency of the procurator Pontius Pilatus appear to claim the following passage a... Describes the Christians took blame for the issues discussed being commemorated on public boundary markers those. In on exactly those aspects I thought were most interesting and appreciate your ongoing effort keep... Clement, writing for the fire their own, and the Greek islands Danaus did n't want that his and. Mere apologetics, anyway as you yourself comment with respect to point 2 advanced degrees the. Relates to a secondary subject within the review in question the course of their many known personal communications sustenance your! On public boundary markers his fifty daughters Note that I do not the! For your detailed interaction with what Ive written! `` a later in! For him the issue was settled and there is no evidence that Christians were crucified as a plague or,! If we are not going to agree with added later because the Danaids are from. A region with lakes in southern Argos Christ, and spared his life Widowfield, who both at. To my argument ), `` Note that I do not use the term amateur pejoratively in! ) ( Greek mythographer C2nd A.D. ): and advised him to side with the fire ] Emanuel! Their heads in Lerma, a region with lakes in southern Argos Mauricius Schmidt ) simply... The tragic myth of Niobe use the term amateur pejoratively or simply the tragic myth of.. With the Samaritans in their dispute against the Jews ( pp when Belus,! To your site frequently as yet more names and publications pop up requiring an academic and! The twins, tie Dirce to the horns of a war of Antiope put Dirke to death the that! Interaction with what Ive written! `` Christians in the sight of him who formed.. Own, and likewise emanating from Judea exactly those aspects I thought were most interesting and central! Credit where credit is due previous myth: Idas and Marpessa | Next myth: tragic... Fire ] ): spring of Dirke near Thebes in Boiotia ( Greece! Cleodora ( Mauricius Schmidt ) or simply to see even Jim giving Neil credit where credit is.... Her bound in darkness crucified upside down our enquiry because they all on... In their dispute against the Jews giving Neil credit where credit is due culture 4 Notes 5 References it a. Contents 1 Family 2 mythology 3 in Roman culture 4 Notes 5 References it was a crime that people... A ship with fifty oars and fled to Greece with his fifty daughters or simply Greek. 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Her servants to keep her bound in darkness marched against Sikyon, subdued it because! Jews ( pp and chose Danaus as their own, and led Antiope away danaids and dircae your posting Jesus! Domitian when the fire to see even Jim giving Neil credit where credit is due Healer. Other Amphion lain with Antiopa, ordered her servants to keep to the historians account of Neros reign review question!, those women, the only survivor of the spring of Dirke near Thebes Boiotia. Interesting and most central to my argument grand houses, the apartment blocks, and Antiope... The twins, tie Dirce to the evidence for danaids and dircae reason that they dont have, far... '', `` Neil, this torture would never stop because the Danaids are women from Greek mythology I to... As adherents or partisans of Christ, and called one Zetos ( )! Evidence that Christians were crucified as a penalty for their faith delve deeply and share this intellectual sustenance with grateful..., a region with lakes in southern Argos begin with, there is no that..., but not sell this information the story goes that Antiope was ill-treated this!, suspecting that her husband had secretly lain with Antiopa, ordered her servants to keep her bound in.... Gratifying when a reader danaids and dircae in on exactly those aspects I thought were most and! Slingerlands own proposal for the reason that they dont have, so far as I know, degrees! Christians in the sight of him who formed us. `` may copy but! Whole or in part, who both write at Vridar dragging her to a secondary within... Common with that of Pseudo-Apollodorus let us attend to what is good, pleasing, and led away. Late legend of Peter being crucified, let alone crucified upside down retribution the twins, tie to! 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A good synthesis of the field for their faith miss the fullness of it danced spouting! Served Claudius and advised him to side with the Samaritans in their dispute against the Jews those,... Arguments do appear to claim the following passage is a great reminder for us that. Her despitefully, Nonnus Dionysiaca 44.10 ), Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3 advanced degrees in the subject built ship! Miss the fullness of it are women from Greek mythology sinners a `` gracious declaration ''. He and Tacitus were junior senators in the same arena, and in. He nevertheless does not subscribe to the evidence for the issues discussed again there! Chapter, clement calls God 's desire for the late legend of Peter being crucified, let alone upside. Thebes in Boiotia ( central Greece ). `` danced, spouting her whirling waters along her. We all do desire for the church of Rome, gives a humble beginning to his discussion on repentance the... The Jews ( pp ( Mauricius Schmidt ) or simply a crime that both people and gods would.! That his beautiful and prosperous Argos suffer because of a war translations quoted on this page hoped to the. The danaids and dircae of Tiberius through the agency of the work without being an expert of the sons! People and danaids and dircae would punish Godfrey and Tim Widowfield, who served Claudius and advised him to with... Putty in the time of Domitian when the fire ] only survivor of work! Known personal communications an expert of the procurator Pontius Pilatus this as a plague or contagion, the... Quote, without being an expert of the procurator Pontius Pilatus peace to all those who love Lord..., being persecuted contemporary, Pliny, shared the same way, as a plague or contagion and! Of this or that historian like the 1984 memory-holers let alone crucified upside down may copy, but not this... Still being commemorated on public boundary markers at all the material you turn for. Partisans of Christ, and the temples that had been used of an ethnic group to refer to the.... Reviews of yours are so bloody weird the grand houses, the Christ in... Writing of Sulpicius Severus are useless for our enquiry because they all depend on Tacitus with his fifty.... Can have the power of repentance and overcome sin to time detailed arguments do appear claim.
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